Curse

Muspellsheimr · Oct 31, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

The only time a monk should ever raise in combat is if they are running Restore, Renew, or Chant on a Healer's Boon build. That is also the only time a monk should even have a res on the bar.

The only time I ever use Rebirth is on my warrior, and I still usually prefer Resurrection Signet.

On the topic of pinging bars - I like it a lot. Let's me know when someone has Blood is Power, Blood Ritual, Demonic Flesh, & Awaken the Blood on the same bar, with 8 Axe Mastery. Yes, this did happen recently. Said person also refused to change the build, insisting that Demonic Flesh was needed for BiP.

EDIT-
Let us also not forget that PvE now has Resurrection Scrolls, significantly reducing the need for having a hard resurrection skill on your bar.

the_jos · Oct 31, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Monk skillbars are the most cramped of all players, you want a full 8 skills on your monks so you don't have to res in the first place.

We are talking PvE here, not PvP.

Deep Steel Wall team: Monks have res
Urgoz's B/P team: monks have res
DoA teams: monks have res

Guess what... All have Rebirth...
How can that happen if Rebirth is the worst skill of all and monks should not res in the first place?

Since it's PvE, which is totally predictable, I'd say a team that needs a 8-skill cramped bar that cannot have a res has failed from the start.

jezz · Oct 31, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Key part bolded.

Monk skillbars are the most cramped of all players, you want a full 8 skills on your monks so you don't have to res in the first place.

There's a lot of emphasis being put on ressing, so let me cover some basics. Ressing should not be a part of your plan. If you plan to res, then you plan to die. Bringing rebirth implies you plan to get full wiped because that is the only time you would use it compared to another res.

Regarding combat resses; you should be using skills that get allies up as quickly as possible with as much of their stats as possible. Death Pact Signet, for example, is superb because it gives you a near immediate return to full strength, with a penalty of punishing you further if you die again (continue to make mistakes, thus not giving any penalty if you don't die again), hence reducing the effect of a single mistake as quickly and fully as possible.

If you're healing with more than three skills, you're bad.

Monk bars are cramped to fit versatility, with condi/hex removal, healing, prot, and self-utility (energy and/or defense).

yeah rezzing isnt part of my plan either ....but sometimes SHIT HAPPENS even to the best of us(pls dont tell me all you so called elite players...every run goes perfect)..i would rather be rezzed by monk with rebirth..then start over...

elektra_lucia · Oct 31, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Every run goes perfect for me in FoW.

Quid Pro Quo · Oct 31, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Am I one of the only people who refuses to ping my build most of the time? Feels insulting to me I know whats good for myself I don't look like a new player and I'm the leader of a guild. If people are only going to let me in the group if I ping my build then kick me but most of the time I don't have too many problems when I refuse.

Other than that its useful to be able to help people with builds by pinging them.

Avarre · Oct 31, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Deep Steel Wall team: Monks have res
Urgoz's B/P team: monks have res
DoA teams: monks have res

What I think you're trying to say is, 'random PuG team : monks have res'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

How can that happen if Rebirth is the worst skill of all and monks should not res in the first place?

Probably because the players in those cases are bad? There is no reason to have rebirth on a monk (or res there at all, really) - if you absolutely must bring rebirth, it goes on a midline character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jezz

yeah rezzing isnt part of my plan either ....but sometimes SHIT HAPPENS even to the best of us(pls dont tell me all you so called elite players...every run goes perfect)..i would rather be rezzed by monk with rebirth..then start over...

That is true. However, I usually prefer the action of pulling back when it is clear that a wipe is going to happen, rather than all dying and one character running away. In cases where I do take too many deaths, a (combat capable) hard res + protting the target and pulling away is usually sufficient. To me, rebirth seems a skill that is brought purely to make up for a teams mistakes to an extent more extreme than any other res skill - and preventable mistakes at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Since it's PvE, which is totally predictable, I'd say a team that needs a 8-skill cramped bar that cannot have a res has failed from the start.

I'd say the team that needed a res for a 'totally predictable' area was the one that failed. Then again, I wouldn't use that logic in the first place because we might as well say 'a team that needs 8 players' or any number of other ridiculous, logically disconnected statements.

Oh, since you seem to misunderstand the meaning of monks having cramped bars : this is because of the number of things you want your monks to be able to do, rather than using a whole bunch of skills that do the same thing. Monk bars maximize efficiency by using skills that synergize and cover multiple situations. One of the situations they do not need to cover, however, is ressing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

P.S. To all you guys bringing up DoA. This thread is not DoA. It's about FoW. You do not need a res on a monk in FoW. Wouldn't run it in DoA either but that's another story.

The SMS 3-man forgemaster run way back in prophecies didn't have any res on any character at all, and we still did fine, so yeah...

elektra_lucia · Oct 31, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Part of team play is making your build work with others. Removing blind of a warrior is important, prot spiriting people is important, hex removing is important. It's none of what that monk bar could do, and that's the bottom line of it. The bar is clearly bad, it does not do what a monk is needed to do.

Great he has a rebirth when the team wipes, but perhaps with prot spirit, the team would not wipe to begin with. Or perhaps with condition removal, the warrior would do enough damage to make sure nothing would kill them.

P.S. To all you guys bringing up DoA. This thread is not DoA. It's about FoW. You do not need a res on a monk in FoW. Wouldn't run it in DoA either but that's another story.

bungusmaximus · Oct 31, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

That is true. However, I usually prefer the action of pulling back when it is clear that a wipe is going to happen, rather than all dying and one character running away.

Oh the horror of people not knowing when they are about to get spanked ><. Pulling back is incredibly hard for many people.

Mouse at Large · Oct 31, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

I have no problem letting others know what I'm carrying. Then it's down to me how I react if asked to change. I have a standard MB/burning/AoE bar that I like to run in most NM missions and I'm reluctant to change, especially when I know it works well in a particular mission.

However, if I don't know the mission or area so well, I'll happily change on the advice of those who know better (as opposed to those who only think they know better

). For example, I was asked to change to Archane Echo/SH/MS for Slaver's Exile and did so.

Anyhow, if you don't like what's being asked of you or the general attitude of a group, leave it..........

jezz · Oct 31, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

P.S. To all you guys bringing up DoA. This thread is not DoA. It's about FoW. You do not need a res on a monk in FoW. Wouldn't run it in DoA either but that's another story.

um where in the OP does it state its regarding FoW?..i think you need to actually read the OP instead of flaming everyone that post anything that doesnt fit your style of playing.

Amon Warrior · Oct 31, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

There are way more benefits than problems with build pinging.

Moving right along...

elektra_lucia · Oct 31, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

jezz everyone makes mistakes. http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=22

Sorry I thought it was regarding FoW because of this comment. Point still stands, res isn't needed on a monk. Blind removal and hex removal is. Not a case of play style, there's running bad skill bars, and there's running good ones. If it's not FoW. All the more need for prot spirit and condition/hex removal.

Often people bring the PVE - PVP argument. Well surprise, only HA gives benefits (in terms of sigils or items), well besides the small ammount from AB. so it's ironic the PVP'ers have so much gold. Maybe they are good at PVE because PVP is more stressful and you should listen to them.

iridescentfyre · Oct 31, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I don't mind pinging my build for others to see, and in fact I don't mind explaining to them why they're idiots for thinking it sucks. I don't run garbage builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by undeadgun

rebirth on a monk is always good in PvE

No, it is a terrible res spell! Its only use comes into play as a recovery tool. And if everyone did what they were supposed to do in the first place, there should not be a need for a "recovery." If your failings were so bad that Rebirth looks like a good spell to rez with, you need to /resign, replace the W/Mos with heroes, and fix your builds. Furthermore, if you were just able to resurrect fallen allies during the fight, maybe you wouldn't need to recovery so heavily afterwards.

If you can't somehow manage to fit a resurrection spell that gives back 100% health into your build, then take a res signet.

Kusandaa · Oct 31, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

jezz everyone makes mistakes. http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=22

Sorry I thought it was regarding FoW because of this comment. Point still stands, res isn't needed on a monk. Blind removal and hex removal is. Not a case of play style, there's running bad skill bars, and there's running good ones. If it's not FoW. All the more need for prot spirit and condition/hex removal.

Often people bring the PVE - PVP argument. Well surprise, only HA gives benefits (in terms of sigils or items), well besides the small ammount from AB. so it's ironic the PVP'ers have so much gold. Maybe they are good at PVE because PVP is more stressful and you should listen to them.

Well first of aall, we often run without a tank (too many casters in our alliance) and heroes are really sucky tank - with prot, anyways, anything can be turned to a tank. (No idea how many times I've tanked as a necro). So we don't usually need "blind" removal. CONDITION removal, however...

Some PvP players completely suck at PvE, usually the ones who think they're soooooo effing awesome EVERYONE should listen to them and do as they say ("I have r9, I'm better than all of you"). That's the typical PvP-player-into-PvE I've encountered. I'm not saying every PvPer is like that, but when I know what I'm doing... >_>. What I usually do is let them lead, see how they eff up, and when we wipe... I take lead.

As for res, I bring rebirth on 2 characters: necromancer when I play N/Mo, because I can rebirth mid-fight; something is guaranteed to die beside another team member, so energy isn't a problem. The other character is a ranger, can work on little energy due to expertise. Else I'll take stuff like Death pact Sig to res fast, Flesh of my Flesh... and that's when I bring a res, since nowadays I end up giving that task to heroes. My monk carries res chant as a safety (I never res mid-fight) and so does my ele (I can res mid-fight, doesn't deplete my energy like rebirth would). I follow the same logic on heroes.

EDIT: Sorry if it doesn't make sense, I shouldn't be posting right after waking up. >_<;.

Cebe · Oct 31, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexion

People need to stop judging builds. As long as the job at hand is being done, everything should be good. As long as a monk heals/prots, an elementalist does good damage, or a ritualist spirit-spams/whatever the build won't matter. I don't see why people get SOOO worked up about how a build is bad and people should be banned from GW because they are not 1337ists.

ANet could fix this by either:
A. taking it out sometime soon
B. leaving it out of GW2
C. *both*

It is sad how GW has gone from amazing to a little pesky.

Post your thoughts?

I don't agree build pinging should be removed. If you're in an all-human team it can be beneficial to have other members of the same profession ping their build to make sure you'll not be stepping in each other's toes, so to speak.

In my experience, it takes an idiot to kick someone from a group without even requesting that they alter their skillbar. If I were the group leader, I may request that people ping builds. If a build conflicted with another, I'd flag it up. If someone had a particularly bad build I would try to help them improve it. Only then if they refuse and show a complete lack of team spirit is it time to start kicking folk, after explaining to them why they are to be kicked so that if it happens enough they may figure that they probably should re-evaluate their playstyle.

On the whole many people I have teamed with are only too happy to alter a build or take advice from another player. I, myself, have been on the receiving end of a kicking when I am playing one type of magic and the leader wants another. The fact I may be competant in more than one line of magic doesn't seem to figure in their little heads. I find it rude to kick without first requesting a change.

I certainly wouldn't describe Guild Wars as "pesky", there are plenty of decent people about.

Why do so many threads these days end up in a discussion about the use of Resurrects?

Avarre · Oct 31, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

This probably leads on from SotiCoto's "Aptitude or Attitude" thread a bit...I would much rather have a friendly player with a couple of dodgy skills but is willing to learn and take on advice in my party, rather than an obnoxious idiot who thinks his build is the BBQPWN of all builds and, even though it's completely unsuitable, refuses to change. I certainly wouldn't describe Guild Wars as "pesky".

You just compared attitude vs idiocy. A player with aptitude would have a fully functional bar, tuned to the area, and know how to use it.

yesitsrob · Oct 31, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

We are talking PvE here, not PvP.

Deep Steel Wall team: Monks have res
Urgoz's B/P team: monks have res
DoA teams: monks have res

Guess what... All have Rebirth...
How can that happen if Rebirth is the worst skill of all and monks should not res in the first place?

Since it's PvE, which is totally predictable, I'd say a team that needs a 8-skill cramped bar that cannot have a res has failed from the start.

The 3 builds you mentioned above are all horrible in the first place first off, the argument of "this is PVE not PVP" is also terrible. I personally almost exclusively PVE now and I would not even think about running Rebirth on my monk. Even in PVE I want utility. I do want Hex Removal, I do want Condition Removal, I do want 2-4 Prot Skills and I also want the odd healing skill. I use all 8 skills slots for this and even then I have to make harder skill sacrifices than on any other class I can imagine. How you can find room for a sub-par res is quite unbelievable.

As far as FoW goes I take 2 hex removals, one normally being Reverse Hex so I have a chance in Hex Removal Racing

bungusmaximus · Oct 31, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

How you can find room for a sub-par res is quite unbelievable.

Hmm it might have something to do with monks knowing when a team will break, because that's the moment they run out of energy and stuff starts dying. Therefore they are often the first one to call a retreat. Some teams however aren't too clever and don't listen->thus wipe. Knowing limitations wins half of the battle.

In the end I prefer your style, but it isn't always up to me.

TheRaven · Oct 31, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I want to see the builds my team is running. Not because I'm an elitist jerk looking to kick someone, but because I want to make sure they are running a build that synergizes with the rest of the team and is appropiate for the area.

If someone refuses to ping I may or may not kick them. It depends on the area. If we're doing a low-level mission then i most likely won't even ask for builds since these are low-level players in the team with only a few beginner skills available. They should be fine for the area though. On the other hand, if we're organizing a fow team I expect the team members to ping. If they won't they get kicked unless they can provide a good reason why they won't. (I can't think of any good reasons, can you?)

Cebe · Oct 31, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You just compared attitude vs idiocy. A player with aptitude would have a fully functional bar, tuned to the area, and know how to use it.

Yes you're right. Now I re-read it, it doesn't convey what I think I was trying to put over.

Cut my losses...Fixed.